This week, we discuss Western Christianity’s historical and contemporary entanglement with imperialism. From the rise of white Christian nationalism to the prevalence of Christian Zionism, white supremacist colonial logics and theologies seem to have not only our country, but our Asian ethnic churches, in a chokehold.
We ask, what does it look like to decolonize our faith? How do we decouple imperialist theologies of domination from our sacred spaces? How do faith and theology of the Global South counter the violence of empire?
This week, we discuss Western Christianity’s historical and contemporary entanglement with imperialism. From the rise of white Christian nationalism to the prevalence of Christian Zionism, white supremacist colonial logics and theologies seem to have not only our country, but our Asian ethnic churches, in a chokehold.
We ask, what does it look like to decolonize our faith? How do we decouple imperialist theologies of domination from our sacred spaces? How do faith and theology of the Global South counter the violence of empire?
I'm Bianca and I'm Jeff and you're listening to Good Thunder.
Speaker 2:We're a Filipino and Chinese husband and wife duo talking all things, personal and political, because the personal is political and the political is personal.
Speaker 1:We speak from our positions as Asians in the US, as new parents and as concerned citizens working to get free from American imperialism. Here we go, episode four right Four.
Speaker 2:Four, the penultimate episode.
Speaker 1:Yes, so apparently doing a podcast is more work than we thought we originally. You know we're going to do six to eight episodes for the first season, but I think we have decided this is the penultimate episode. We'll do one more after this and that'll wrap up our first season and we will be back when we come back. Yeah, how are you feeling today, Jeff?
Speaker 2:To be honest, I am anxious, a little bit scared wired, have a bit of adrenaline going through me. Little bit scared wired, have a bit of adrenaline going through me. Um, I've been following the iranian counter-attack on israel, as many of y'all know. Um, israel attacked uh an iranian embassy, killing uh upwards of 13 people, uh, and that there's an attack on ir soil and Iran is, you know, finally launching their counterattacks. And, yeah, what happens next and how the US empire and Israel response can really determine whether we go to a world war or not. Yeah, I made like six TikToks before this in a row just trying to keep everyone updated, and there's just so much to cover.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a lot and if you feel like I mean, when this comes out, there might be there will probably be even more out on this if you feel like there's so much to keep up with and you know I mean for me, I feel I'm just like I haven't even been on my phone all day. I've been working slash watching Hari. I will be catching up on your six TikToks, jeff, but it is a lot and it's scary the times that we live in. For me, in the time since we recorded the last episode, I decided to start anti-anxiety medication, not the SSRI kind. Those are the kinds you take every day. I got on an as-needed one after talking to my PCP for like an hour. It was super helpful and you know the horrors persist, but we all need to persist and sometimes that means getting medicated. So that's where I'm at these days.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for sharing, bianca. So, yeah, what are we talking about this week? I think we have something that we've been wanting to talk about for a while.
Speaker 1:Yes, we are talking about religion, in particular Western Christianity, and empire.
Speaker 2:We wanted to do this episode, since we even had the idea of starting the podcast, because we have long histories with uh, evangelicalism and you know religion, and again, western christianity in particular, is intimately tied to imperialism yeah, and it what we've been seeing in the media around us is not only just like Christian nationalism, but also Christian Zionism and how it's really drumming up the support for the Zionist entity in West Asia that is Israel, and as they commit genocide against Palestinians. And yeah, it's horrifying to see, as former evangelicals, just how far people will go to support their quote-unquote belief system even though it's being weaponized against as a tool for oppression.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're going to do a very cursory discussion on Christian Zionism. There is so much more to cover than we'll be able to today and, yeah, like Jeff said, as former evangelicals who are very deep in these Christian spaces, we're going to kind of give our takes and interpretations of what we're seeing, as well as talk a little bit about our relationships with spirituality and religion today. So, yeah, I guess, to start, I actually got to go to the World Academic Forum for Palestine last weekend, which was held by Scholars Against the War on Palestine, and I share this because I went to a session on Sunday morning on theology and imperialism, and Reverend Winther Isaac was there, who is a Palestinian reverend, and he framed everything in a really concise way and he talked about quote the unholy trinity, which is the relationship between coloniality, racism and theology, how the three of these things really need each other and how white Christian nationalism in the US justifies colonial domination through its theologies on race and colonialism, and how Christian Zionism is absolutely part of the rise in white Christian nationalism that we've been seeing. And so some examples he gave are one evangelical pastor turned congressman, tim Wahlberg, who actually was quoted to say that Palestine should be taken care of, like Nagasaki and Hiroshima. He said, quote get it over with quick right, referring to nuclear weapons. And also Lauren Boebert I saw this on Al Jazeera who is a Republican representative in Colorado, you know claims that the?
Speaker 1:U of Israel are the two nations created to glorify God and she's going to do everything to bless and defend these two nations. And so you know, this is really representative of white Christian nationalist slash Christian Zionist thought on what's going on right now. And those of us who are concerned about the rise of white Christian nationalism, which you know, if you care about abortion, if you care about same-sex marriage, if you care about freedom to teach actual history in schools, if you care about trans rights, right then we should absolutely care about the rise of white Christian nationalism, because all of these things are tied together and, on top of that, these things are intimately tied to concerns about Israel. And yeah, again, just the centrality of Christian Zionism in white Christian nationalism in the US. But yeah, again, just the centrality of Christian Zionism in white Christian nationalism in the US. But yeah, basically everything that we're seeing domestically is tied to these theological and political conservative agendas about Israel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think like what we're seeing now is like religion and scripture taken out of context, without actually understanding who God is and who Jesus is, like Christian nationalists here in America like to zoom in on two particular passages in the Bible where the first is like how Abraham is the father of two sons One is Isaac, who is supposedly where the Jewish people descended from, and Ishmael, who he had out of wedlock and is supposedly where Muslims descended from, and that whole story kind of is used to paint this narrative that this is why Jews and Muslims hate each other. And then also they zoom in on the book of Revelations, on how Israel is imperative to not only bringing about the apocalypse but Jesus's second coming, jesus' second coming. And this is just like completely taken out of context and contrary to who Jesus actually stood for. I believe that if Christian nationalists and Christian Zionists were around during Jesus' time, that they would actually hate him, that they would actually take part in saying crucify him, as Jesus is getting arrested by the Roman state and being given the death sentence.
Speaker 2:Because Jesus was actually a revolutionary, he was countercultural, he was an anti-capitalist. One of his famous stories is him being at the temple flipping over the tables of the money changers because of the way that they were exploiting the people. And then he was also anti-empire, like he always talked about how the kingdom of God is at hand while in Roman territory and he in the very end, when he had the option to subject to Roman rule and Roman law and denounce that he is the king of the Jews. He didn't. He was also anti-ethnostate. He was always challenging the Pharisees about how they treated the Gentiles, the non-Jews of Palestine. And you know it's crazy because people forget that Jesus was this brown Palestinian Jew. And you know it's crazy because people forget that Jesus was this brown Palestinian Jew. And you know, easter was a couple of weeks ago and many Christians celebrated the resurrection of this brown Palestinian Jew, but yet many have said nothing about the genocide against Palestinians that has been going on for over six months already.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I don't think they forgot that Jesus was a brown Palestinian Jew.
Speaker 1:Right, it goes back to coloniality, racism and theology together.
Speaker 1:I feel like Western Christianity constructed Jesus and needed Jesus to be white to justify the ways that their theology would justify colonial conquest and racist exclusion from you know, like the body politic right, like historically absolutely true, but at the same time, it doesn't surprise me that, you know, the mainstream church in America isn't saying anything, because it's completely on brand with how they've constructed Christianity to fit their racialized, colonialist goals. I do know, though, that there obviously this isn't all Christians, this isn't all religious people. I know that there is a group called Christians for Free Palestine, who was in DC this past week. They work to mobilize Christians to challenge Christian Zionism, and I know they did a lot of direct action recently. A bunch of them got arrested, and so it's just and you know, we know that most American citizens want a ceasefire, and so it really just shows how, again, like white, christian nationalists seem to have taken our country hostage on so many issues, and you know, palestine being a core one, given their Christian Zionist, theological and political beliefs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really concerning and I think, like that political narrative and political rhetoric is so pervasive that, you know, even the immigrant Baptist church that I grew up in is parroting those things right Like.
Speaker 2:I grew up in this Filipino immigrant church and it is what I would like to say is one of the most communist places I know in terms of their actions, in the ways that they serve each other food, and those that don't have much are not expected to bring, and those that have more money, more resources, are expected to contribute more, and it is an unspoken agreement.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know, there's instances where you know people would gather to celebrate somebody that don't they don't even know. I had a cousin from out of state whose mother is not alive and my mom and my uncle threw her a bridal shower and everyone from the church came, even though they didn't know her personally, and brought gifts right. Like the way that the immigrant church is center of care for a lot of people that have recently immigrated to the US, and the way that they love each other and the way that they support each other. It's kind of contradictory to the politics that they preach on stage. I know that in my church there are people that are undocumented, and yet the pastor from up front would be preaching to a room full of immigrants to immigrate the right way.
Speaker 1:Quote the right way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what even is the right way? What even are nation states? And speaking of nation states, their support for Israel is also really in line with Christian nationalists and even though they're not white, it's pervasive in their theology because that is what is passed down from these, I guess, center of knowledge and theology. That is white Christian nationalists. Seminary leaders are often white and they often dictate what is true in these immigrant churches. And I've heard people from churches that would say you know, there's no way we could compete with white churches and what does that even mean? Why are you competing with white churches? Like competing in what? Like you offer something completely unique, beautiful and different, and the goal is not to imitate or mimic whiteness or white church and that's just part of the tensions that I feel with my home church and immigrant churches in general is like the place is contradictory in the way that they love each other in action, but what is preached from up front and what they parrot is so violent sometimes.
Speaker 1:Jeff is preaching. Yeah, I think what you're naming is the coloniality, the ongoing coloniality even of ethnic churches in the US right. That starts often via Western missionary presence in our home countries as well, salience of whiteness and white racial colonial politics and logics in spaces where there isn't necessarily a single white person present, such as, you know, our Asian churches, and so you know there's the. So it sounds like you know at your church there was like very xenophobic kind of rhetoric. Did you hear like Zionist teachings kind of rhetoric Did?
Speaker 2:you hear like Zionist teachings, not fairly recent. You know I am a post-evangelical Christian that go to church with my family on holidays such as Christmas, thanksgiving and Easter, so I haven't been there recently to hear, but on Easter, but growing up, yeah, like you know, I would hear things like israel is the. You know, is god chosen, is god's chosen? People like interesting and stuff like that. The same old, like christian nationalist rhetoric of um god being able to choose a chosen group of people and hold them higher than everyone else. So it's wild.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So yeah, I asked that because I mean, I didn't grow up in the church but I was, since high school, you know, was very involved in a Chinese church and then joined like campus ministry for several years after that. It sounds like from your experience you did hear those explicit Zionist teachings about Israel. Yeah, which is really interesting, I think. You know, when I think about religion and spirituality, I just feel like similar to Jeff. You know, we both left these evangelical spaces together around the same time over there drawing a hard line in the sand around queerness and us.
Speaker 1:Well, for me, you know, in that time, realizing I am not straight, and when they talk about theologies around sexuality, it isn't theological, it's a very personal and embodied conversation for me and just feeling like for me to really be myself, it's untenable for me to be in these spaces and then and you know, personally, but also theologically, and so since then, thinking about spirituality like church, we've gone to affirming churches after that and that was really great. But now, since we've relocated to Texas, I just love my Sunday mornings and I checked out actually one or two of Birmingham churches, but I think just right now in the phase in our lives, it's just not something that I'm seeking out, but I feel like the more we see violence and state violence escalate, the more we see different institutions that were supposed to hold us fail, the more we I feel like, at least for myself need spirituality or something greater than myself to sustain me in activism and action. I really feel, since October 7th, the limitations of my own humanness of being able to continue engaging, continue showing up, continue leaning into so much suffering and death. It is just like cognitively too much, I feel like, for like we haven't evolved to know how to process so much suffering and to know what to do about it as a species, and so I feel like, yeah, just, I guess my life framework is like I feel like we need something bigger than ourselves, and for me, I don't really know what that looks like. I think about.
Speaker 1:There's this quote from Grace Lee Boggs. I feel like I've quoted her so much in this podcast and I love her like imprints on this, but she talked about how, in our hyper individualistic and hyper materialistic world, she said we need a philosophical and spiritual leap to become more human, human beings, and I just think you know that quote really shows that we, in the inhumanity of what we're seeing right now. We need not just movement building but we need spirituality in our movements. And so I think one way that I again like church isn't part of my life, like Jeff and I kind of have a prayer practice sometime, but one thing that has grounded me is understanding that white Christian nationalism, christian Zionism, that that is not the Christianity or the faith of the global South or, in particular, palestinian Christianity. For example, and again at the academic forum I went to last Sunday, daniel Ben-Nurra, who is a Palestinian PhD candidate at Notre Dame, talked about this this huge chasm between American Christianity, which is the theology of domination, versus global South slash Palestinian Christianity, which is the theology of the oppressed, of the dominated. And so I think for me, like in this time, just trying to return to these ideas and concepts of God being the God of the oppressed and God the liberator these were things, ironically, that we did learn about in American evangelicalism and I think, like after I left, I was like I'm throwing all this away. But in this time, like I wrote, I think back in October or November, I wrote a poem titled Palestine is leading me back to God, and I do feel like seeing and witnessing this moment is like forcing me to go back and retrieve and compost some of these old ideas that I used to really cling to of again, like Christ being oppressed and of the oppressed bring up. You know, in this time that have, I think, awakened, like my need for spirituality is just seeing Palestinians, you know, stay back and dig each other's family members out of the rubble. Or seeing elderly and children, amputees right, most of the surviving Palestinian population now being disabled, fleeing for their lives, but choosing to move slowly as they flee to make sure that nobody in their community gets left behind. And those are just a few examples of how I feel.
Speaker 1:Like, you know, I was reminded like, yeah, the divinity in each of us values and protects the preciousness of life and of the whole community. And it has even reminded me like these are the things that actually drew me to Christianity as a young person. Like, yes, I was naive, I needed a community. And sometimes I'm like why did I waste, you know, so many years working for these, like evangelical organizations that didn't care about me? But at the same time, like, yeah, those were the things that drew me in, was like this value for life and community? And I think those are the things that, even as I'm talking like I feel my spirit kind of reactivated again. So, anyways, I think like faith for me now is also part of my decolonial journey of what is spirituality for me without evangelicalism, without the heteropatriarchy of evangelicalism, without the spiritual abuse that I feel like a lot of queer folks have experienced in these spaces, like what is spirituality without and also beyond and after these things?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm glad that you're you touch on. You know how do we decolonize our faith, and that is a question I'm continually asking because you know, like growing up in the Philippines, especially as the Philippines is a former US colony you know it is quote unquote the largest Christian nation in Asia because of former Spanish and US Spanish and US presence there, and yet what I see is a group of people that is occupied and oppressed by the US empire to this day. And also seeing that in amongst the Filipino migrant churches, it's like for me as a father, it's like you know, I would love for our son to find a home there, but knowing that there are many people his age, there are many aunties and uncles, titos and titas that love him dearly, but yet we don't want him to internalize these very violent and oppressive things that are being preached from up front, and also not only that, but also the silence of important issues like Palestine. Right, how do we decolonize our faith? And, as you mentioned, how Palestine is leading you back to God?
Speaker 2:I'm always saying Palestinian liberation is our liberation, not only in the physical, but I also believe in the spiritual and the examples that they've been giving us of how to truly care for each other and how to remain steadfast amidst being bombarded by empire. You know, not that we have physical bombs that we are running from here in the US, but living in the imperial core, inside the belly of the beast, there are ways that empire impacts us daily. And how do we remain steadfast? Not only in our personal liberation, but the liberation of those around us, and that includes Shulie as well.
Speaker 1:Liberation, but the liberation of those around us, and that includes Shalee as well, yeah, yeah. And not to paint Palestinians as like, right, like I feel like sometimes, when we paint I don't know like the quote perfect victim, that that actually is its own form of dehumanization. But I get what you're saying, though, right, that, like. I mean you know, I feel like Black feminists have been saying this that this is the moral test of the world, right, yeah. And going back to what you're saying about how, yeah, we love the ethnic church community, it is hella socialist, right.
Speaker 1:People are out here paying each other's bills, literally, and at the same time, I also not only don't want our kid to internalize the toxic theologies, but I also don't want our child to think that it's okay to gather and to talk about faith and community and not talk about the genocide. You know, I don't want him to internalize and think that silence is okay, right and yeah. So, anyways, I think, to close, basically, I feel that I feel this loss. I do feel this loss that you know, we don't really have like a social justice, faith, community, racial estrangement that I think a lot of people feel after being very involved in church spaces, especially when your religious and your ethnic, racial spaces overlap right. There's a feeling of being known in those spaces that then you know, when you leave, when you get pushed out or excommunicated, it leaves a hole. And yet, at the same time, like we have to leave places that are not, you know, compatible with you know, liberatory politics, or are not compatible with the people that we are becoming and want to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I definitely agree. I believe this is a journey that we're still on and that many people are on, and you know, we're just trying to figure out where we need to go next, one day at a time, one week at a time and one person at a time. So, yeah, thanks again for joining us, and we're happy and glad that there are many of y'all that have signed on to just hear us blabber about things that interest us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm curious too, you know, it seems like a lot of folks who have tuned in have their own religious baggage. I mean, who doesn't? I'm very curious how people have approached this in their own kind of decolonial journeys. Yeah, one more thing, one kind of happy thing to share. I think one way that I have been trying to tap into spirituality is actually to return to my own cultural, indigenous healing traditions, and one way that I've been able to do that is actually through acupuncture. And I don't know, I don't know doctor, I won't say her name but my acupuncturist has been really helping me over the last years, heal this mind-body-spirit connection and kind of reek to me back to like just this desire and thirst for spirituality that I've always had but didn't, you know, have been without, I think. And so, yeah, also curious, you know, as people deconstruct what their faith used to look like, as people deconstruct what their faith used to look like, what practices have been helpful in liberating to them. And with that, we will catch you next week.
Speaker 2:See y'all later. Thank you so much for tuning in again.