Good Thunder Pod

1. tech & empire

• Good Thunder Pod • Season 1 • Episode 1

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In this first episode of Good Thunder, Bianca and Jeff navigate the labyrinth of issues around technology, American imperialism, and our own roles within violent, capitalist systems. Focusing on the SXSW boycotts, we look to the artists, musicians, and organizers to lead the way as we work to align our professional ambitions with our commitments to liberation. 

Speaker 2:

I'm Bianca and I'm Jeff and you're listening to Good Thunder One, two, three four we're a Filipino and Chinese husband and wife duo talking all things, personal and political, because the personal is political and the political is personal.

Speaker 1:

We speak from our positions as Asians in the US, as new parents and as concerned citizens working to get free from American imperialism. Okay, here we go. First episode how are you doing, jeff, today?

Speaker 2:

I'm full. Full not as in like eating lots of food, full even though I do that all the time. I'm talking about like just life is full. The new cycle is full and heavy. There's just lots to do and lots to plan about and lots to think about. How about you, bianca? How are you doing?

Speaker 1:

I'm actually doing okay. We're recording this Sunday night and I feel like we I've actually had a lovely weekend. We saw us friends for lunch today. We took our baby out with us, which is a feat in itself, but he had a great time and, yeah, I'm feeling pretty grounded, actually, in the midst of everything going on.

Speaker 2:

Nice, that's good to hear. Well, yeah, as we mentioned, this is Good Thunder. I think, since this is our first episode, maybe we should start off with why we're called Good Thunder to begin with.

Speaker 1:

So Good Thunder is actually our namesake in our respective native languages. La Boute in Tagalog means good and Louie comes from the Chinese character loi, pronouncing Cantonese, which means thunder. A lot of folks are usually surprised that Louie is actually Chinese last name, but I guess you know the ancestors on Angel Island got their name changed to something more palatable, to whiteness back then, but that's where it comes from. That's, yeah, the meaning of our combined last name.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's why we're Good Thunder and that's why we're making noise on all things political and all things personal, because the political is personal, as you heard from the intro.

Speaker 1:

Yes. So we wanted to actually talk about that intro and that slogan we have for the podcast a little before we dive into the topic for the week. Why did we choose, you know, this framing of the personal as political for this podcast? I think I had heard that phrase for many years in different community organizing spaces and it just clicked for me right the connection between the macro and the structural to the personal and interpersonal details and interactions of our lives. And I think there is a quote I wanted to start us off with from Angela Davis who really encapsulates, I think, what we're going for.

Speaker 1:

She writes everyone is familiar with the slogan the personal is political. Not only that what we experience on a personal level has profound political implications, but that our interior lives, our emotional lives, are very much informed by ideology. We oftentimes do the work of the state in and through our interior lives. What we often assume belongs most intimately to ourselves and to our emotional life has been produced elsewhere and has been recruited to do the work of racism and repression. This is from her book Freedom is a Constant Struggle Ferguson, palestine and the Foundations of a Movement.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, thanks for sharing, Bianca.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so we see the personal vocation, family, everything from desire and dating to money, these things that we assume to be again very personal, to be informed by or at the very least in conversation with broader structures, politics, the systems, be it race as a structure, religion as a structure, the carceral system, all of these things are connected.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and so this week we're gonna be talking about South by Southwest and what's been going on there and now it affects us on the personal level. Every week we're gonna be diving into things that are current, events, that are political, and we relate that back to us as Asians in the US, as parents and as a couple, and how that affects us and how we're processing it. So this week we're talking about South by Southwest and I actually went to UT Austin, hookah Morns.

Speaker 1:

Which is where South by Southwest, or it's hosted in Austin.

Speaker 2:

Exactly exactly, and South by Southwest used to be just this indie music festival where local bands and bands across the country would come together and put on this event and Austin is actually the live music capital in the US and that's why it's there. But during my time in college, actually, twitter got involved and from there from like the 2005, or I think they launched in 2006. 2006,. It has since morphed into what it is today, which is this large event that features not only concerts and bands across the country, but big tech and film festivals and even an education component. So why are we talking about South by Southwest this week, bianca?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so part of it is that I was there last week for a day. I was actually there for a informal day-long summit gathering for Asian keynote speakers, so it wasn't officially hosted by South, by Southwest, but I was there in the midst of all of it, and then I did end up getting a pass, which, by the way, are like over $1,000 per person. I ended up getting a pass from a very generous friend who allowed me to go for free with his company, and I ended up going to one session. I wanted to do more, but I ended up only doing one, for reasons I will share later. But we're talking about it this week because it's not just a conference.

Speaker 1:

I think it speaks to larger questions we have about tech and empire and the military industrial complex, and so South by Southwest, in particular, folks have been boycotting it this year because of its sponsorship by the military, by BAE Systems and Raytheon, its subsidiary Collins Aerospace, all of these companies and institutions who basically manufacture bombs and weapons currently used by Israel, and so I know that-.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and if you didn't know, israel is currently committing a genocide in Palestine, funded by the US.

Speaker 1:

And if you didn't know, I don't know where you've been, but now you know. So yeah, it's been really interesting following along with the boycotts, as well as being there for a day and kind of seeing for myself what this huge thing is all about. Austin for Palestine. That coalition has been doing a lot of grassroots behind the scenes work, heeding the call of the Palestinian BDS movement boycott, divest and sanctions against Israeli occupation and they are the ones who've been calling musicians and bands in particular to boycott. So at the time of this recording, according to Politico, five music labels and 105 bands and musicians have actually pulled out of the conference.

Speaker 2:

Wow, that's a lot.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and I wanted to share a quote from a musician named Eliza Nicolam. She said I will never put my name on or perform my labor for an event in service of the US war machine, and especially not now, as they continue to fuel the ongoing violence against Palestinians. Blood money has no place in music. So I think this is really interesting, because it's mostly been musicians who have pulled out. Correct me if I'm wrong people who are listening but I have not heard of really any tech companies or people in tech who have pulled out in protest. So I think this points to the important role of artists and musicians in this moment being able to speak truth in a way that I honestly think big tech companies are too afraid to do, or maybe too wanted to do and it all, oh, go ahead.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and what's interesting is like we often see the people that have the most to lose, the most vulnerable, being the ones that are putting themselves out there, putting themselves at risk for moments like this where there needs to be a stance or a statement in opposition to, I guess, these sponsorships Exactly.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. So a lot of these artists I mean I'm not really like into indie music, I don't know a lot about indie music but I've never these aren't like big artists. They probably could really use the platform actually and exposure at South by and yet they are still choosing to opt out. So it's a huge act of solidarity. Yeah, and I wanted to also add so Ruha Benjamin, who is an author and an incredible sociologist at Princeton. She is the author of viral justice and, most recently, imagination, a manifesto. She boycotted her own talk at South by and instead hosted a teach-in with organizers from data for black lives, hosted free for the public at the Austin Public Library. So I think, another, you know, incredible example of solidarity and also choosing to Counter the exclusivity of South by, where you need this expensive pass or connections to get in, and instead choosing To host an open teach-in available for everybody.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I mean my time as a college student there. You know I was your typical broke college student couldn't really afford much, had this ground job for food and I have never been to South by Southwest, even though I grew up in Texas and went to school at UT Austin.

Speaker 1:

Wait, so I have a question. So even back then it wasn't accessible to the community um, yeah, because you still had to pay.

Speaker 2:

I was on student loans and you know, when you're thinking about the next meal you're gonna eat, you don't really think about. Going to music festival. Exactly exactly so that. Yeah, it was definitely Exclusive back then, but even more so now with big tech involved.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so you have some background in tech and you also know a little bit about, you know the role of Tech and Empire, why Jeff was Raytheon even at this tech conference to begin with yeah, raytheon and their subsidiaries and you know the US military was being at this conference might seem like they're out of place or Might seem confusing, but actually, if you look back at the history of tech and the US military, it's always there's been always this relationship between them, starting from World War two.

Speaker 2:

Actually, the US was and their Western allies was fighting against Nazi Germany and they were getting beat, they were getting pushed back and the US saw the potential and the need for science to be a part of their military and they actually brought on this guy named Vannabar Bush, who is like the father to Silicon, silicon Valley, to Come up with different technologies that would give them the edge against their foes.

Speaker 2:

And then, later on, he continued to work for the military to develop different type of Weapons and ultimately was one of the brainchild's to the Oppenheimer project in building the atomic bombs and even in what we use today and with regards to our consumer products. It has a history of, you know, being used for the military first and foremost. You think about GPS that was used to Find different Bombing targets. Or, if you talk, think about like instant messaging, that was for military to be able to communicate from the US to any part of the world In order to project hegemony and be able to plan military attacks and invasions, and even things like the smartphone that we all use today. That was from old military technology of the phones that they were using at that time, and it wasn't just all those old things in modern history. Actually, both Microsoft and Google have worked with the military to develop like cutting-edge technology for things like Augmented reality or even their drones.

Speaker 2:

So there, it has always been a relationship between the two.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think of also the spot shooters. Can you talk a little bit about it?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so in Israel right now, there's actually these drones that uses facial recognition software to be able to automatically detect a target and fire, I guess, a gun, a weapon, all unmanned, meaning this is using AI drones and a A person doesn't have to be at the other end of the camera to be able to pull the trigger and that is just. You know, that is like sky net. That is dystopian. Exactly murder, exactly yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's terrifying. I'm just like shaking my head and giving myself wrinkles over here thinking about it. It's very scary.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, yeah, it is very scary, and which leads us to, I guess, a personal aspect, like why, what was your experience at South by Southwest and I have you been thinking about it's since attending and how does it, how did it affect you directly?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean I've never been really in Even like corporate or tech spaces.

Speaker 1:

I mean come from like the classroom, I come from community spaces and so I think it's just so interesting that in these spaces you know they're selling us and they're talking about these two neck technologies Like they are doing so much social good for the world and in many cases they are and at the same time you know how this dark history and Big tets, very dark, insidious and violent ties to the military industrial complex, are just kind of completely lost over Until you know, in this moment of collective reckoning around imperialism, we're starting to see the connections and how ubiquitous yeah right, empire is.

Speaker 1:

And so for me, when I went, you know again, I was only there for one session because I honestly was just like stressing myself out the rest of the time About how I felt about being there. And you know I share this with no judgment at all, for people Participate and I totally understand, you know, especially like indie filmmakers from, you know, underrepresented communities. I totally understand and saw and witnessed how Folks really used that space and made it their own to create community, create their own ecosystem within this larger, very complicated Institution, and I believe that that can happen you know, yeah, we're everywhere at the same time.

Speaker 1:

For me, I felt like man, these systems are so interconnected and I was really entertaining the idea of Going next year and hosting a session for my book, because when I was there it was just the first day and I hadn't learned that much about the boycott yet. I was just like taking everything in and yeah.

Speaker 1:

Like you should host a book session here next year and I was like going through and I was like it actually would be amazing because it would open me up to this Audience that probably otherwise wouldn't pick up my book and they do like a book signing. They hope they put you in the South by Southwest bookstore and it's very, you know, fancy, it's cool.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's just a lure of it, of like being exposed to this market. That yeah would be beyond your reach.

Speaker 1:

Right and this illusion of like out honestly right.

Speaker 1:

And at the same time, you know, I was talking to my best friend on the way home on the phone when I was driving back and just thinking about how we know that these systems are so interconnected. And as Westerners, you know, we all have blood on our hands, we're all guilty, but where do we draw the line? You know, for the sake of our own souls, for the sake of our integrity, is it? You know, as I was really entertaining what it would look like to go next, to apply to go next year and the benefits of going, I was thinking, you know, would it be impactful and meaningful for me to go and try to be part of this space, but make it my own right? Like, bring my own folks and make it accessible, and bring folks from the community and try to make my presence they're disruptive to the status quo. Like, could I? Could I try to do that?

Speaker 1:

and be okay with myself, or would it be more meaningful to actually opt out and protest altogether? And you know there's no right answer and I see the value in all of these things and it's such an individual, I think, kind of decision. You know you, only you know your heart and only you know your own intentions and yeah, okay with.

Speaker 1:

But for me, what kind of switched me over was, on the second day, when I was supposed to go to more South by Southwest sessions, I ended up meeting up with some friends in the justice organizing space in Austin and I found out that one of them actually had been doing behind the scenes work with Austin for Palestine, getting music groups to opt out and boycott the festival, and in that moment I just it became really clear to me like who am I to go against the ask of and the demand of local organizers?

Speaker 1:

And my own friends who are doing this work, like the answer became really clear to me that community in this context, into this situation, and my integrity to these folks who are making that ask, is more important. But I still have a hard time because I think I feel the urgency to provide for my family financially and I feel the urgency to, like I said in the preview right, to like try to I don't know like make more financial stability for my family. Yeah, yeah, my parents are getting older. Yeah, maybe it's really stressful, but at the same time I feel the urgency to model for my kid how to engage or disengage with systems and spaces like these and how we can be ambitious and creative and do what it takes to actualize our dreams without abandoning our values in our communities.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, that's very real, Like I believe. You know, a lot of people can relate the needing to earn money in order to provide for not only themselves but their communities and families. Right, our parents are getting older, our child is getting older himself, and you know, I'm left thinking about, like, how do I make more money and how do I do that faster? Right, and if that's our that's, that's an okay thing to think about, but if that's our main driver, then I think it's important to kind of step back and ask ourselves why. And I remember, like when I was in tech, I was doing software sales for like five, six years. This was immediately after being fired from this faith-based nonprofit for my LGBTQ views and I was LGBTQ affirming yeah.

Speaker 2:

LGBTQ affirming views, and I just needed something fast. And I found myself excelling and, you know, hitting quota, making lots of money, way more than my nonprofit job, and it's. It was very easy for me to, as a Gemini, as this air sign, to be a part of something that can change me. Yeah, I'm really. I can be a good chameleon and blend in into whatever the dominant culture is and mimic that, but at the same time, like when I was in different startups that I was a part of, I noticed when I would first come in that like people didn't really talk to me until I started hitting quota. And when I started hitting quota, that's when everyone wanted to like I guess, quote, unquote be my friend.

Speaker 2:

And then, at the same time, I've been a part of these different tech companies that are all about the AI and inclusion and they love to, yeah, parrot all these progressive slogans but at the end of the day like often, more often than not is their C-suite and their VP suite are all white. So it's like talking about these values but in reality it's not there. And it really came to a head for me during COVID, when this was just at the beginning and I didn't know what was going on. We were seeing the numbers go up, we were seeing how many people were dying and there I was working from home, yeah, just focusing on selling software as the what I thought at the time. The world was going down, people were dying and I was just focusing on helping the rich become richer with software and it's like I was thinking like what am I doing? Like how am I making the world a better place?

Speaker 2:

And ultimately, like my company was affected by COVID and my department got downsized and I was let go. But I think for me that was a blessing in disguise, because I could have easily continued to be a part of that system and no shade to everyone that is in tech. Like we all have different skills, we are all different vocations, but that was a decision that I needed to make for myself, even though I was thinking about how to provide for our family. It's like how much of this was changing me, how much of this affected not only me on a day-to-day basis, but also like how was I compromising?

Speaker 1:

That's such a good question.

Speaker 2:

Cause I got fired from this faith based on profit. But then I'm in this, you know ultra-capitalistic space that I feel like I'm partitioning parts of myself in order to not only achieve quota but be accepted into the dominant culture which is all about making so much money, Like I've heard so much, like let's fucking go, let's crush these sales, oh my gosh Right. And it's like people gotta do what they gotta do in order to provide. But at the end of the day, as you said, this is an individual choice more often than not. But I think for me, like I took a look at my values and my community and decided to step away from it and not pursue another like tech sales job afterwards.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's so hard because that position allowed us to pay for a wedding, live in Oakland as rent was getting more and more expensive. And again, like the people who are, like you know, politically aligned with us, right, and who are like, yeah, I'm just gonna clock in, clock out, work this job and like support my family and make money for these years and then go do something else, I'm like, yeah, get your bag. Yeah, and at the same time, the question you asked of like is this also changing me though, while I'm there?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

It's an important one to ask and even recognizing, like the decision to opt out once you are in a position like that is also a place of privilege to be able to be able.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 1:

Because we ended up moving and you ended up, you know, being able to work with your family's company and we had a few other options at that point, where we know that that's not the case for everybody, but I did wanna say like it is an individualistic choice and if we took responsibility for each other, if we had more collective care, if we had more safety nets, right Like that choice could feel more liberating as opposed to like, oh, I just gotta do this and endure this to survive this system, Right, right, yeah, I'm curious. You know people who are listening how you navigate these systems, these politics, these ethics and values. Have folks been in situations where you feel like, whether it's a conference or a job, or you feel like you know how do I remain integrist to myself and authentic to myself and what I believe in, while also, like we've been saying, surviving this capitalist system?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, cause you know it's easy to opt out. When you're only thinking about yourself, yeah, but when you're thinking about your community and your family, in living in the imperial core where capitalism is the only way, like, how do you balance your values as well as the need to provide?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

How do you remain integrist to yourself? How do you, while you know, doing the necessary things that we have to do while in this system?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and also you know not to opt out of it completely. It's not like. You know, as much as I joke about and fantasize about living on a commune with my friends, I can't farm.

Speaker 2:

Like.

Speaker 1:

I don't know if I could actually do it at this stage in my life, like, and I don't know if being totally isolationist from these systems is the answer either.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, did you have anything else to add?

Speaker 2:

No, I think that's it. Like you know, these are the things that we think about late at night instead of going to sleep, and I think you know we have questions still. You know we don't have the answers. This is not the point of the podcast, but this is just share with you with our process, and this week just happened to be South by Southwest Tech and the Military Industrial Complex.

Speaker 1:

Yep as it is. So if you are into this kind of content, follow our podcast so that new episodes come automatically to your app. Follow us at Good Thunder Pod on TikTok, youtube and Instagram and tell your friends, and we will see you next week for episode two.

Speaker 2:

Yep, see you again, Bye.